Oct 4, 2026 · 1h 8m
Listen from 1:01:29
Listen at 1:01:29
DOGE’s assault on government tests the value of expertise
Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis)
The episode examines how politicized leadership and indiscriminate cuts can weaken public safety, tax compliance, institutional trust, and democratic accountability.
- 1DOGE’s effort to reduce spending became a broader campaign to seize and reshape federal institutions.
- 2Research at NIST and tax administration at the IRS show why seemingly mundane government functions matter.
- 3Rebuilding government requires understanding its purposes before cutting rules, staff, or institutions.
Don't miss
Lewis recounts how security chief Colin O’Brien tried to keep DOGE from taking over the U.S. Institute of Peace, turning institutional control into a physical confrontation.
The brief
Michael Lewis joins Jon Lovett to discuss Blockers, his account of federal employees resisting DOGE’s effort to seize and dismantle government institutions.
At the U.S. Institute of Peace, a dispute over control escalated into a physical struggle involving private security, federal agencies, police, weapons, and political pressure.
Lewis connects the campaign against government expertise to NIST’s fire research and the IRS, where weakened enforcement can erode voluntary tax compliance and public trust.
The conversation uses Chesterton’s Fence to argue that rules and institutions should be understood before they are removed, because their value may be invisible until gone.
Lewis and Lovett conclude that policymakers need a stronger story about explaining, repairing, and rebuilding government rather than simply attacking it.
What was said on this episode
17 statements · 5 positive · 10 negative · 2 mixed
Howard Lutnick lacks Department of Commerce knowledge and concern.
“Howard Lutnick really knows nothing about the Department of Commerce, and he doesn't care.”
Listen at 24:53
Removing Alex’s credit card effectively halts his laboratory work.
“Alex's credit card is taken away. He, he can't buy supplies for his, his— for his lab. It's just— it basically grinds him to a halt.”
Listen at 25:26
Markets perform poorly at providing public-safety functions.
“The market, especially with public safety stuff, the market is terrible.”
Listen at 27:26
Government performs valuable public-safety work.
“the government does all this great stuff.”
Listen at 27:31
Small groups with freedom to experiment produce innovations and discoveries.
“it is these sort of of moments of small groups of people with the freedom to maneuver, try things, right?”
Listen at 28:17
Eliminating NIST’s travel department reduces government efficiency and effectiveness.
“the government is less efficient and less effective.”
Listen at 29:39
Travel cuts shift scientists toward administrative work.
“the people that you have presumably hired to provide their comparative advantage now have to spend more time doing administrative tasks.”
Listen at 29:42
Close oversight keeps government fraud relatively low.
“There's not a lot of fraud because they get watched so closely.”
Listen at 30:56
Government employees probably do not steal large amounts of public money.
“the idea that people in the government are like stealing a lot of money from the government, that's probably unlikely.”
Listen at 31:02
The best government employees are among society’s best people.
“the best of them are the best among us.”
Listen at 32:09
Cynical treatment drives valuable public servants out of government.
“if you treat them with this kind of cynicism, you're driving out something that's just essential to the society.”
Listen at 32:12
Sahil Lavingia built an IRS app after returning to government.
“He wanted to build an app and he's done it. He's come back and he's done it.”
Listen at 1:01:29
Trump and DOGE reflect underlying government problems.
“Trump is a symptom of a lot of big problems that if everything was working just beautifully, Doge would never have been allowed to come in and trash it.”
Listen at 1:02:45
Politics lacks a compelling government-reform narrative and leadership.
“it does feel to me like there is a vacuum vacuum in our politics and that there's a hole there waiting for someone to walk into it”
Listen at 1:03:03
Trump disregards facts and precedent but effectively wields power.
“Trump comes in and has no respect for past and no respect for numbers and no respect for facts, but knows how to wield power.”
Listen at 1:04:32
Trump has a political narrative while his opponents lack one.
“we're in this narrative war, that he has a story and the other side doesn't have a story.”
Listen at 1:05:17
A constructive political narrative is essential to preserving democracy.
“it is actually absolutely essential to the preservation of the democracy that you need to have the narrative.”
Listen at 1:05:41
Statements are attributed to the speaker as said on the episode and reflect their view at the time, not PodLume's. They are not advice.
Books & mentions
Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State
Michael Lewis’s book expands the stories of federal employees resisting DOGE’s assault on government institutions.
The Fifth Risk
Lewis’s earlier book provides context on presidential transitions, political appointments, and the consequences of neglecting government expertise.
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